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Saturday, June 18, 2011

The tiger devours the dragon

Here in IndicRace we don't like India Vs China debates. These are 2 different nations with different histories and ideologies. India and China have been the greatest civilizations on earth from time immemorial and will continue to be so. Whether the Chinese manage to retain the ancient Chinese greatness or become cheap copies of  western culture is to be seen.

There us a "debate rage" on the internet that India will never match up to China since India is a democracy and democracy is inherent with inefficiencies and slowness. One just needs to look at the state of Gujarat in India and realize that this need not be true. Gujarat is a direct challenge to China and has been growing at well over 12% year on year for some time now. Even all of India grew slightly higher than China last fiscal year. Communism is inherent with crime, oppression and hatred and can never be a rival to democracy. Just like communism is no match to democracy Chinese economic growth can never be compared to Indian growth. India grows IN SPITE of all the efficiencies. In India issues are debated and overcome, if the parties don't find common ground the very project or venture is abandoned. In China the speed-breakers and irritants are just plucked away and a few executions happen here and there. 


  1. Greetings from China.

    I totally agree that India vs. China debates are pointless. I believe it is more important to develop peaceful relations between our two nations, as the West will certainly attempt to set us against each other - even try to deceive us into war against each other - to prevent our rise. Anyone who tries to spread negative rumours online about India to the Chinese or about China to the Indians should be suspected to be either an agent of the West or someone too stupid to understand that India and China must stand together for the future.

    On this subject, I would like to respectfully request that you stop criticising China's government for being non-democratic. This is another Western tactic to cause conflict inside China. Ordinary people in China do not want democracy; only a small group of Western-educated freaks are agitating for it (with Western support). Just like the uprisings we currently see in Libya, Syria and other countries are backed by the West to weaken those countries, they want to do the same in China. So please, if you are a true friend of China, then do not repeat this foolish propaganda about the need for democracy in China.

    All the greatest periods of Chinese history occurred under autocracy. Our current government is simply a new form of autocracy. It ceased to be communist decades ago, so there is no need to worry about us!

  2. @Anonymous Welcome to Indic Race and good to hear from you. While I agree that India and China contests are no good and that we need to be united, I doubt if it is the west alone which keeps us apart politically. Here in India, people are sick of communism and Maoism and rightly view Chinese Govt with suspicion, not the Chinese people. China is held at a distance by democratic nations because of its communist nature. Being capitalistic doesn't necessarily mean that a government ha squit being communist. Atheism, tight control over people's lives and thinking, restricting internet and other media are all hallmarks of communist thinking which is still alive in China. I disagree with you when you say that we need to unite and not fall to the west's propoganda. In this case the west's claims on Chinese totalitarianism is correct. Chinese people are too wise and great to be held in reins of a cheap western imported ideology like communism. What is truly great is Chinese culture and traditions, not some 2 cent authoritarian regime like the CCP. Chinese today have started becoming cheap copies of the west, Chinese traditions, religions, clothing/costumes etc are on the wane. We Indians want Chinese to be Chinese in culture, not a cheap copy of the west. Only a freedom-living China and India can unite, never can a communist China be at peace with India.

  3. China does not call for India to become autocratic, so why does India call for China to become democratic? It is hard to build good relations with this kind of attitude. Please reconsider.

    Limitation of media is common to all autocratic systems in the past, and has been practiced throughout Chinese history. Were all the ancient Chinese dynasties 'communist'? I think not. As for atheism, people are allowed to practice religion; it is only the state that is officially atheist.

    We surely know what form of government works for us. You call the CCP 'totalitarian' and 'authoritarian', but it is no more 'totalitarian' or 'authoritarian' than any of our ancient monarchies, which worked very well for us. As a matter of fact, the Chinese culture you admire is a product of thousands of years of autocracy, think about that. If China became democratic, then that would truly be the end of Chinese culture (which is what the West wants) because democracy is a form of government that goes against our entire civilization.

    The idea that a nation must be democratic in order to be free is a Western myth. China has always been free in that every time an autocrat became decadent, the people overthrew him. But when we overthrow him, we replace him with another autocrat, not with a democracy. This is the Chinese culture. Do you still think we are a 'cheap copy of the West'?

  4. @anonymous,

    If you notice the history of India and China, they have constantly evolved with time which probably explains why they have retained their culture and traditions as against being Islamicized or Christianised. Chinese have been more democratic than you think. Democracy existed in India and China long before the west. If it wasnt for the eclectic and democratic nature of Chinese they wud not have accepted Buddhism. Even until 1947 India too has had autocratic governments with no direct voting. It was natural for Indians and Chinese to have a government which is truly liked by people and a govt which does not suppress people. India has one, China doesn't. The Taiwanese are far better on this front. If it wasn't for communism, China would not have fought with Soviet Union, India, Vietnam etc etc. Communist China swallowed Tibet. These are wars inspired by Communist hate and ideology. Many of our Chinese brothers and sisters were slaughtered in the Tienanmen square incident. The communist govt cruelly and burtally suppressed the movement. Do you deny that the Tienanmen square incident was not a democratic revolution by the people of China or was it also a western conspiracy? Do you also claim Falung Gong to be a western conspiracy theory? These are real genuine chinese people on the ground wanting freedom from Communist govt. It is nt the west, every other country in the world will also accept this. A nation NEEDS to be democratic to be free. An autocratic govt will suppress people and restrict all forms of being free like forming groups and expressing political will. Political activism is the BASIC human right of an individual but it has been denied by the communist govt. Atheism was forced upon people on many an occassion and Christianity, Buddhism and Taoism have all been forced to kneel before communism in China.

    In the US I worked with a Chinese gentleman who fleed from China during the cultural revolution where he was forced to work in a coal mine and which broke his back. My opinions are formed not from western sources but form true stories I have heard from my Chinese brothers and sisters. My Mom's dentist is a Chinese too.

    When I say Chinese people have become cheap copies of the west just look at them now. They now dress, eat, think and try to act like westerners. All Chinese traditions and culture has been dumped. Thats not the case with most Indians, there are some who seriously ape the west and my blog ridicules them all the time.

    If you see China's friends today they are North Korea, Pakistan, Iran and other such nations which have brutally suppressed their nations. and Pakistan is supposedly democratic but they are still worse.

    My friend from China, you are a patriotic person, your patriotism shud be to the great culture of China and not to the communist govt. Imagine the greatness of China when her people will be able to do whatever they wish and can elect their rulers. Look at Cuba. It is a free nation, why cant China at least be like Cuba? Why does it have to be a North Korea?

    Take care bro.

  5. The acceptance of Buddhism in China has nothing to do with democracy. As a matter of fact, Buddhism in China flourished because autocrats such as Liang Wudi or Wu Zetian converted to it themselves and then promoted it throughout the country. I believe the same is true of your Asoka, who was also an autocrat.

    Again you are using Western myths to talk to me. A government does not have to be democratic to be well-liked. You blame lack of democracy for China's wars, but then how do you account for the far greater number of wars waged by the democracies of America or, before it, Britain?

    Yes, Tiananmen Square was an attempt at democracy, which is why it failed. The only people who supported it were some pro-West college students. The rest of China considered it absurd. Of course the Western media portrayed it as CCP vs. the people, but that was not the truth at all. Falun Gong is even more absurd; they represent China about as much as the Klu Klux Klan represents America. Of course the Western media will not tell you that.

    If an autocratic government prevents expression of political will, then explain to me how there have been so many overthrows of autocratic dynasties in Chinese history.

    Human rights is another Western myth. You can believe in them if you want (I will not try to stop you), but you will not convince me to do the same, nor should you be trying to. All the best rulers, in China or even anywhere in the world, were not elected. This is far more convincing to me that autocracy works.

    I agree that many Chinese are Westernised, but it is precisely these Westernised Chinese who are most pro-democracy. That should be your clue. Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

  6. @anonymous
    Acceptance of Buddhism has everything to do with being eclectic and democratic in nature. It is with a open mind that Chinese people think which is why communism is an anomaly for the Chinese. In the past there was no choice between autocracy or democracy so no wonder autocracy persisted. In the modern world of today people HAVE a choice. The Indians took the choice, the Chinese could not, their democrats were kicked to Taiwan and today Taiwan is more prosperous than China. To you, freedom, human rights and choices all seem to be western constructs and fail to see that they existed even before the west existed in India and China. Offical state brain-washing has convinced some Chinese that autocracy is best but they wil never find out until they taste true franchise rights and democracy, until then they will continue to believe that absurd theory.

    Now when Chinese people have a choice, autocracy is outdated and a relic of the past. China's economic growth has not been accompanied by political growth.

    Imperialism, Islamism, Fascism and Communism have caused most of the wars in the world. Look up my blog posts on imperialism of the west, if I had been brain washed by the West I would not have dared write against them. I am a neutral observer between west's imperialism and China's communism. And my opinion is not influenced by either, its an Indic opinion.

    It will be unfair to call Tiananmen square incident as handwork of a few western influenced Chinese students. Thats ridiculous. Do you call the Tibetan protesters in India also as western agents? Why do the Tibetans want out of China and have moved to a somewhat democratic setup now? Falun Gong is a hardcore attempt towards freedom and the CCP does not want that.

    You will realize the futility of autocracy when you taste democracy. Thank you too for the discussion. Good to see many Chinese friends wanting good relations between Indians and the Chinese.

  7. (I would just like to clarify that I spent twenty years of my life living in a democratic country. It is not ignorance of democracy, but experience of it, and also experience of autocracy, that leads me to have vastly more confidence in the latter.)

  8. @Anonymous what you have seen is western democracy in action, the same model wont work perfectly in China. But thats democracy none the less. For example I take exception to the 15 billion porn industry and the 911 tutoring to children when their parents hit them. You need to look at democracy from Chinese perspective. Communism and Western form of democracy is bunkum and wont work for China. Look at Taiwan, they are more prosperous and definitely more free than in China with their somewhat frail democracy under constant improvement. Now thats Chinese democracy for you.